...and that's only the begining of the chapter. In life there is not only a physical "race", but also a spiritual "race" as well. There are many distractions around us, but we must continually focus on the goal, the endpoint, to judge weather what we are doing is necessary. Christ desires to be the central focus of both our physical and spiritual race, so that I may see his wonderful example and follow him and not get discouraged.
I must continually ask myself:
How do the things I do today help me to get successfully to the end of life and to Heaven to fellowship with my creator?
How about you?
~Brian
52 comments:
Are you saying that what you do today makes a difference as to whether or not you get to go to heaven to fellowship with your creator?
No, what I do today will not change weather I go to Heaven or not when I die. I am a Christian therefore I will go to Heaven when I die. What may change is the path between here and there - the rest of my life.
God has reserved a place in heaven for me, (John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.").
And not only has he reserved a place for me, but a crown (reward for my service to him) as well. (2 Timothy 4:8 "Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.")This is promised to all that follow, obey, and honor God with their actions and life.
What is it exactly that makes you (anybody) a Christian?
The grace of the LORD.
Well how does that work?
Basically:
God the Father decided before the creation of the world to save certain sinners (the elect).
Christ died on the cross for Brian's and my sins — and yours if you are among the elect.
The Holy Spirit converts us to Christianity, causing us to repent. When we repent, the Spirit applies Christ's death for our sins to us.
Do you want a more in-depth explanation?
Yes please.
Nathaniel pretty much covered the facts, but it works like this: We all (everyone) have sinned (broken God's law) and therefore have condemned ourselves to the just everlasting punishment that is the reward for defying an eternally holy God. There was is humanly no hope of escape from his wrath (which I repeat is perfectly just), but God, being also loving, decided in his good pleasure to have compassion on us and sent his Son Jesus Christ to live among us. Jesus being fully God and fully man (something which I do not yet entirely understand) lived perfectly and fulfilled the law that God set out for us. Then he gave himself up to be a sacrifice for our (any of the elect) sins (because God's law requires that perfect blood be shed to cover our imperfections). He was put to death on the cross at our (man's) hand, and suffered complete separation from God the Father. Yet so great was his love toward us that he prayed that the ultimate sin of deicide would not be held to our charge. Anyway after three days in a tomb, Christ Jesus conquered death (he could have done it sooner or later, I am not saying that it took three days of work) rose out of the grave, proved to his disciples that he was a whole man and not a ghost, then ascended into heaven. All he asks of us now is that we put to death our sinful nature, believe on him, and serve him faithfully with all we have. If we do so we will be brought into eternal paradise with him to glory in his presence forever. If we do not, we must suffer the just retribution for rejecting his love and be cast into the fires of hell, where we will suffer with the devil and his angels under the rule of Christ forever, with absolutely no hope of escape at all. If you have any questions about what I said, please post them here or on suninyoureyes.blogspot.com
So, how do you know if you're one of the elect, and what happens if you're not? Not everyone can go to heaven?
No, unfortunately not every one can go to heaven. How do you know when someone is among the elect? You can't really tell about anybody else as there have been good people who just faked it their whole lives (like the pharisees) and then there have been vile sinners (like Saul of Tarsus and the theif next to Jesus on the cross) who were miraculously saved. (Of course all salvation is miraculous but theirs especially) But I just avoided the question. How do you know if you are elect? That is very hard. I think it is when you truly know that you have sinned and you hate that sin and ask Christ for salvation from the penalty of your sin and ask him to remove it from your life and put his works in you instead. When such a request is made in truth and sincerity you can know that you are elect and that the Lord Jesus will hear your prayer, as those who are not elect will never be able to see past their sinful natures to the truth of what I have just said. Also if you make that prayer in sincerity, you will experiance a change in your life (sometimes slow as in my life, and sometimes very sudden as in the case of Saul) in which you will hunger for God's word and desire to glorify him, and despise all sin in and around your life (I sure have enough of it). But those who have not had their eyes opened to the light being un-elect will receive their just due, and be cast into everlasting torment from which there is no escape. For God, although he is merciful, is also just and righteous. He is not a partial judge, and will accept no amount of fame (which he grants) riches (which he owns) or good works (which is merely our duty and not anything special) to cover over that which only the blood of God can wipe away.
Did I make any sense there? Or do you want a longer disertation?
Nathaniel or Brian, please don't let me take over your conversation, add what I miss because I probably left out a lot.
I have to say that you did a great job of pretty well covering the basics Josh. When I was 'gone' over the weekend, I was unable to check my email or here from Saturday afternoon until today. So a lot has been discussed without me, but that's all right.
Being a member of the elect is not something you can decide, but rather something that God has ordained in time past. He has already chosen who is the elect, but he can use circumstances to bring about your awareness of the sin nature (Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God") in your life (as was/is in mine) and in turn, bring about confession, repentance, and faith in the Savior. As it clearly says in God's Word, all who are not saved will go to Hell (Matthew 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.", Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.") for all eternity because God, being just, requires payment for the sins you have committed in your life. On the other hand, the elect will go to Heaven (Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.")to fellowship with God himself for eternity, and only because of the payment Jesus Christ paid (1 Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit", 1 Peter 1:18-19 "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot") for the sins of the elect.
No, Josh, you've been doing a very good job. You're not cutting in on me at least. I hope Brian doesn't consider me to have cut in on him 8^D
No Nathaniel, you're fine.
Annonymous: do you have any more questions? If so, Josh, Nathaniel, or I will gladly try to answer them.
I have read the excerpts from this blog and appreciate the searching and study that has gone into all of this. I was invited by a friend to check on to this site to see what I thought. I hope that you folks (Brian and Nathaniel) could help. I guess that I am a little confused.
I recently have had several individuals tell me that they could not be saved because they were not a part of God’s elect – or not His predestined ones. I am disappointed with my personal lack of Bible knowledge. I wished that I had a better handle on the entire Word of God, but I am dedicated to God and to His precepts. When the individuals told me that they could not be saved because they were not of the elect, something didn’t quite gel in my mind. So I set to study for myself.
As far as I can see, the Bible doesn’t say that people are lost because they have no ability to receive Christ. The Bible actually says that those not saved are not saved of their own accord. John 5:40 “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” This verse saying: it’s not a matter of can, but will. Matthew 23:37 also gives similar reference to man’s unwillingness to accept Christ.
Revelation 22:17 says, “And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” According to my study, the phrase “whosoever will,” is referring to anyone that is willing – or wanting. I guess that I would have to disagree with this “elect theory.” It appears to me that though God knows who will and who will not accept Christ, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ, as Lord and Savior of their life will be saved!
Some have quoted John 6:44 to support your theory: “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 1:9 makes it clear though, that all who come into the world are drawn to God: “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” Literally, this passage means that all men have light.
Romans 1:19-20 speaks of being drawn to God because of the very fact of creation. Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called to repentance through their conscience even though they have not heard the Word of God.
I would argue that God is calling the all of us to repentance, but only some will truly accept Christ. The Bible even goes so far as to say that Christ died for the sins of the entire world. I John 2:2 says, “He (Christ) is a propitiation (sacrifice) for our sins, and not for our’s only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” I Timothy 2:5,6 support the same Scriptural fact.
I am a young man, trying to have the best relationship with God as possible. I would appreciate if the Blog-Master would post this entire entry and also respond in the same public manner.
Thanks
Bob
We will not come to Christ because we cannot, and we cannot because we will not. Yes, we will not to come, but we are unable. A reference which I would note is Mark 4:11, 12.
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, 'them may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"
We see here how to reconcile the passages you mentioned. People cannot turn because the secret of the kingdom of God has not been given them. However, they do not want to turn. Why would unchanged hearts want to obey God?
Does this help?
Thank you for your speedy response. I did not intend to leave Josh out of the discussion. This is a public blog; all may participate.
I aim not to be redundant, but to view the Scripture that you quoted in its full context.
Matthew 4:13-20 says, “And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14 The sower soweth the word.
15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
This passage actually speaks of the hard-heartedness of man, rather than man’s inability. Jesus was alone with the twelve disciples and some others as well. They asked of Him a parable. He told them in verse 11 that they in fact have the mystery of God (salvation) in the power of their grasp. Those who did not know God (them that are without) however, all is but a parable (similitude; story with some deep meaning – possibly indiscernible). Verse 12 explains that because they have not the true knowledge of God, the Truth of the Scripture is foreign to them as well.
I Corinthians 2:14 further supports this: “But the natural man (unsaved) receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
This passage speaks of the inability (to use your wording) of the unsaved to take in the pithy Truths of the Word of God. They will have no ability to grow as a Christian, because they are not Christians! There is nothing for them to understand of the things of God.
I Corinthians 2 is not saying that the unsaved cannot get saved. Otherwise none of us would be saved. Agree?
Back to Mark 4: The parable that Jesus gives to the disciple and other followers is the parable of the sower. As this parable progresses, it is evident that the seed sown is the Word of God – namely the Gospel message. Some hear, and Satan takes away the seed (verse 15). Others hear and do not let the Gospel take root, being led away by sin (verses 16-17). Some will hear, but the cares of this world choke out the Gospel (verses 18-19). And some hear – and are receptive to the message; thus getting saved (verse 20).
I have delved deeply into this passage and am assured that God is not sowing this seed for the purpose of naught. But rather as II Peter 3:9b says God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
God has given to us all the choice to either accept Christ – or reject Him.
I again thank you for your response.
Bob
Yes, but God chooses the soils on which to sow. Without the sower, all four areas he sows in would be weedy or rocky. He ploughs some ground, making it good for crops. Therefore, when he provides the seed, the ground produces a crop — thirty, sixty, etc. An Arminian view says that all ground is equally able to produce seed. Can weedy soil do so? The Arminian view also concludes that the ground can decide to be productive. Can the path decide to sprout wheat? No matter what is done, the path won't bear grain. Likewise, God decided in æternity to save some completely. He ploughs some ground and plants on it, not ploughing everything and planting nothing.
Proverbs 1:21-33 says, “Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
The clear evil spoken of in this passage is the rejection of the fear of the Lord (verse 29 esp.). Again, God condemns them not because they cannot come to Him, but because they will not come to Him. They have been given the opportunity but chose their own direction.
Joshua 24:15 says, “And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Again, this confirms the choice of one to serve God or reject by going some other way.
I was accused of taking the Armenian stand on the Word of God. I do not claim this label. I am not even sure of all that the Armenians believe. I am reluctant to even take any religious group label, but I am a Christian – bought by the blood of Jesus Christ. This salvation was a gift, given to me when I received Christ as my Lord and Savior. He forgave me of my sins, through the precious blood of Calvary. He imparted to me that great salvation: Full, Free, and Forever! If I took a specific label – it would be a Biblicist. I stand on the Word of God. I am not dependant on the moral or spiritual conclusions of man; rather I give credence to the Bible. The Scripture never contradicts itself, nor is the Word of God limited to our finite minds. The Word of God simply stating the facts establishes the Truths of Scripture as Truth. I am not completely aware of all that an Armenian includes, but I am sure that the Bible is true!
I will pray for you folks. I trust that you will continue to study the Bible. With the Holy Spirit’s guidance, you will understand that the God of the Bible is limitless. He is not contained in a box – nor does He follow after our thought processes (And it’s a good thing too!).
You will be reminded that the God of the Bible loved us so much, that “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.” You will also discover that Jesus died not only for our sins, but also for the sins of the world (I John 2:2 “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”). This “demonstrated love” was displayed for the purpose of saving the entire world (though most will reject). This idea of a limited sacrifice of the blood of Christ is different from what the Bible actually teaches.
You told a recent, anonymous questioner that God saves us by His grace (undeserved favor). The plan of salvation is the perfect picture of that grace you speak of: Jesus died for the sins of a world that did not deserve Him.
The most quoted verse of the Bible: John 3:16 further affirms God’s intent in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It reads, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Please notice, that God love the world. His love was not limited to the “elect.” The word “whosoever” refers to all that will; anyone; all. No limited sacrifice is included.
The verse that follows (John 3:17) reads, “For God sent not his Son to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” Do you see it? God’s will is for the world to get saved! In fact the exact wording is: “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
I Timothy 2:4 speaks of God saying He “ . . . will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Can you see that God’s will is that all will be saved? Is God’s grace evident in the plan of salvation?
As your beliefs would have it, God chose (elected) those He wanted. All others have no chance. This is not a picture of grace. Your belief paints the picture of a vindictive God, saying, “He would only choose those He wanted to go to Heaven; the others He chooses to go to Hell.” “Election,” that elects the saved to Heaven, would logically elect the unsaved to Hell, and the Bible teaches otherwise.
I agree, according to the Bible, that God does know who will be saved. He even uses some sinners as vessels for His work (i.e., Judas, Pharaoh, Israel’s punishing nations,) but His usage of those vessels is based on His foreknowledge of who will be saved. Even those that God uses for His purpose are given the chance to either accept or reject Him.
One of your probable proof texts for election is Romans 8:29-30: “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Please notice that though He did foreknow, His predestination was that the saved be conformed to the image of Christ. This “supporting text” for your theory actually proves that God has called us to live for Him. Most occurrences of the word “elect” accurately refer to our being the elect of God’s creation because we are saved.
Peter (I Peter 1:2) calls himself “elect according to the foreknowledge,” but this election is “unto obedience” as the text later says. He was not chosen to be saved – He was chosen to follow in obedience. I remind you, that Jesus invited Peter to follow Him. It was Peter’s choice to accept or reject Christ.
II Timothy 2:10 reads, “Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sake, that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.” If Paul believed in the “Electionist’s” view of God, why would the elect even need salvation? Why would Paul “endure . . . for the elect’s sake” if they are already “elect” to be saved? Answer: Because the term “elect” refers to the future position of those who come to Christ and not to the chosen individuals that God picked. The word “elect” actually refers to our being the premiere of God’s creation – because we have obtained salvation!
You believe that “we cannot come to Christ because we will not, and we will not because we cannot.” You use this circular reasoning to define your perception of God’s position with us.
God desires us to come to Him. That is His position.
I John 5:12 says, “He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son hath not life. Again, I submit that a man can either choose to accept Christ or reject Him as Savior. The choice is yours!
I Timothy 2:5,6, Romans 8:32, and Isaiah 53:6 all back this same Biblical doctrine of full atonement. Isaiah 53:6 says, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every on to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him (Christ) the iniquity of us all.”
Notice in this passage the first “all” speaks of everyone’s separation from God: Everyone has at one point been apart from God. The second “all” refers to Christ taking on iniquity (sin).
Did He take part of the iniquity? No.
Did He take most of the iniquity? No.
He took the same measure of iniquity, as there are sinners. He atoned for ALL the sin of ALL mankind! Praise God and Hallelujah! Only believe.
Am I implying that all will be saved? No. If you reject Him, the Bible says that you will enter into a literal Hell. Hell is described (Matthew 8:12) as a place of “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The Bible also says (Mark 8:43) that Hell is aflame with “the fire that never shall be quenched (extinguished).” The Scriptures also say (II Thessalonians 1:8, 9) that individuals that know not God, “ . . . shall be punished with everlasting destruction.” You, however, can know God. You can be apart of His kingdom.
Accepting Christ does not require a membership at a specific club, nor does it ask that you first be apart of some elite group. Salvation only requires that you believe and receive Christ. The Bible says, “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.”
I would like to invite you, the reader, to trust Christ as your Lord and Savior. He has given to you the opportunity to come and receive Him. Some two thousand years ago, Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, to live a perfect, sinless life as God in the flesh. The Bible says that He willing laid down His life for us. His blood was shed by the cruel death of the cross, and it was my sin and your sin that was responsible for Him being nailed there. He died to pay the penalty that we, in fact, deserve, but His death was not the end of His life on this earth. He rose to live again! And He still lives and intercedes (prays for us) at the right hand of God. I serve a risen Savior! If you will simply believe and receive Him as your personal Lord and Savior from your sins, you will be saved. The choice is yours to make! Receive Him today.
I will not be participating in this particular blog any longer. I will probably not change your opinion (Nathaniel, Josh, and Brian), and you cannot change the Biblical promises that I have found in the Word of God. I do invite anyone to email me with your questions regarding salvation. My email address is diricbob99@yahoo.com
Please subject all email as “Salvation.” I will try to answer any question you may have concerning the Bible and salvation.
Bob
Hey Bob, you might not read this, but I wish you would. I almost agree with you on your stance of not taking a religous label because that allows you to fit your faith to what you read in the Bible. A very commendable way to live to be sure. But you must be very careful that you are not fitting the Bible to your beliefs, as the supporters of the KKK did in the early 1800's. I believe you may have fallen slightly into this trap. But I will hit on that later.
Proverbs 1: nice supporting verse of 29, but you skipped right over 28- they seek me early, but they shall not find me. You are right that man is condemned for not choosing God, but God has hidden Himself from man so that he cannot choose. You are right again that all men have the oppurtunity to choose good, but as I said before, we never will because of our sinful natures.
The challenge in Joshua was made to the Isrealites- people whom God had already rescued, not your average Gentile.
You say you do not know what the Armenians believe. Let me tell you. They view salvation as open to every single person in the world. They also believe that you can loose your salvation at any given moment. These are both unbiblical ideas that I will debate with anyone who wishes to take up their cause.
Amen to your statement that the Bible is completely true. I could not agree more. But those with astute minds can (as Satan did) take scripture and twist it to fit their purposes. This is outright evil.
Thanks for your prayers to our unhindered Lord and Father. I would encourage you to get with two or three other believers as you pray for where two or three are gathered together in My Name, there I am in the midst of them. Also continue to study the scriptures yourself to see if what I say is true.
But you are wrong in your idea of unlimited attonement. If every man's sin was covered by the blood of Jesus then The Father would be forced to let every man into heaven. Then where would be his justice? Would you not be angry if there was a judge that let every single prisoner that came before him get off scott free in the name of love even though there was a tremendous amount of evidence against the criminal and the criminal even spat in the face of the judge? This is not love. Nor is it just. In fact God demonstrates His love toward His saints by pouring His just wrath out on those who do not serve Him. Also, I heard a learned pastor speak on the subject of "every man." He noted that every man does not refer to the American "True/False" view of every (in that if one is excluded, then it is not every) but in the broader meaning of the word in that salvation and Christ's sacrifice is no longer available to just the Jews, but now to the whole world- to the Gentiles also.
And now I am out of time, so I will address the rest of your deep and well thought out mssage when I get back.
-Joshua B
Okay, I am back now. It seem that the rest of your comment is baised on the idea that all maens "each and every individual" instead of "the Gentiles as well as the Jews." So I will not discuss it further except to point out that you contradict yourself on the point of God's will being that all (your definition) are saved from hell. I would say that all in that instance refers to all of the elect. Because if it didn't there would be a major problem with the Bible, and your faith would be baised on nothing. You see, God's will will always be done no matter what. And under your definition that would imply that every person would go to heaven. You said this was not true yourself. It is also not true because then where would be God's justice?
You also say that Christ took all sin for all mankind, if that were true then no one would go to hell no matter what. I could go out and kill and rape and steal with no fear of judgement because Christ paid for my sin wether I like it or not. That idea makes a mockery of the cross.
One final note: as a Reformed Presbyterian, I cannot say that we do not have problems. In fact we have many, but as an organized church of Christ, we can come together and search the scriptures with much prayer and supplication to see what is the true meaning of the scripture. This coming together hinders those who would twist the word of God to fit their mistaken ideas. And one of the things the leaders of my church believe to be true (And I have found great reason to agree) is that we are living to serve God's glory not our own: everything good that we could possibly do will some way bring glory to God. This is one of the major foundations on which we build our doctrine of salvation. If we make the decision to become followers of Christ in and of ourselves, and by our own power, is that not salvation by works (what we have done)? This is expressly countered in Eph 2:8-9. Instead, we believe that our salvation is all the work of Christ, by and for His glory.
I would urge you to rid your life of the pride of the decision that you have made and acknowledge Jesus for what He has done.
So Bob, in conclusion, if you have come back and read this, please do not put off these ideas as hogwash right away, but ponder them and pray about them for a while to see if there might be some truth to what I say. Also, please know that I hold you in the highest regard and consider your comment well thought out. A little off maybe, but still well thought.
Sincerely,
Joshua Bright
P.S. If you do happen to come back and read this, but still don't want to carry on the conversation, please email me at brightflier03@yahoo.com
I'm just wondering how you came to the conclusion that just because Christ died for ALL sins that means all would have to go to heaven. All can in fact go IF they repent of their sins and ask Christ to reign in their hearts and lives. The thing is that not everyone IS going to. When Christ died on the cross He died for all, but the choice is theirs. (this is not bob)
If you bought a car and the dealer told you it was all paid for by a guy who came in before you, there is no way that you would be able to pay for the car. The dealership would not be able to accept your money even if you wanted to pay, because they would have a lot of trouble with it in their next audit. Likewise if Christ paid for all sins on the cross, that means that all our sins our paid for. Wether we like it or not. So God would not be just in sending people to hell because then their sin would have been paid for twice. But I did not say that that is what happened. God in his foreknowledge, knew who would repent and who would not, and Christ paid for all the sins of those who would repent. Is that logical enough? Or am I still far out?
I'm not totally sure I understand your reasoning....now let's say a wealthy man went to the dealership and payed off every single car, then he told the salesman to put an ad in the paper saying any who come and ask may have a car, and to top it off he stood outside the dealership with a sign telling anybody who passed by. Some people will believe it and come and receive freely. On the other hand, there will be those who don't think they need it, those who will say they don't deserve it, and those that will just flat out laugh at and mock him. Now this man knew who would take one and who wouldn't. But he still gave everyone the opportunity. Otherwise, he would've just given to those that he knew would take it and not even bothered to tell anyone else. After all, if he just wanted a certain amount of people why should he bother to make it public?
I think you missed my point. I perfectly agree with what you just said except for one point. What would the wealthy guy do with all the extra cars he bought? Is it just wasted money? No. If he knew who (and therefore how many people) would accept his offer, he would only buy enough cars for them. He offers to all, but knows that only few will believe, so he only buys enough for the few.
You can hardly compare the blood of Christ to the car buying process.
Very true. Just as spreading the gospel is hardly comparable to sowing seed. Just as the animals killed by the Isrealites did not cleanse their sin, but was merely a sign of things to come. While the blood of sheep and goats was far from even coming close to the blood of my Lord, it helped them to understand how their condemnation and salvation from said condemnation worked. So if cars and kind wealthy guys help people today understand how God works salvation in our hearts then Praise the Lord and more glory to Him.
josh, why did jesus use the parable of the sower, if,
sowing the seed was not a good example?
I never never never said that it was a bad example. Far be it from me to say that anything done by my Lord was less than perfect. I did say that the example is far less than the real thing however. A mere dead seed has no comparison to the living word of God, just as a pathetic little car has no comparison to the saving blood of Christ. Yet while there is no comparison, I believe that both are good examples to help our minds comprehend the love and justice of God.
Yay!!! Brian has 30 comments now!!! Way to go Brian!!!
Must be a record!
josh, " far less than the real thing", is less than perfect
:)
I am confused. What do you mean? Are you saying that Jesus wasn't perfect in his parables? If you are, then you are dead wrong. Emphasis on dead. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I don't know any other way to say it. But how can it be perfect if it is far less than real? Because real cannot be comprehendid by our puny little minds. So Jesus could have stated what was real, but no-one would have understood Him and He would be wasteing words. But He brought it down to our lower level by giving us examples that we could understand. Perfectly.
Your comment was that the parable of the seed and sower was not the best example of spreading the gospel..that was what I was referencing in my last comment. I agree with you that everything the Lord says in His Word is perfect including his examples. Remember the parables were for the people of His time just as people can relate today to buying a car today since we go to the grocery store to buy our food and most of us don't have to raise it.
I'm sorry, I should have worded my comment better so that you would not misunderstand it. I meant to say that while sowing seed and spreading the gospel are very different in practice and units, they do have the same theory, just as giving away cars and salvation are very different in practice and units, but also comparable in theory. With the point that as Jesus used some earthly thing to perfectly demonstrate a point, I believe that I was justified in doing so also. (Although I am far from perfect) And that to discredit my example on the basis of non-comparability in units is an invalid excuse to try and avoid having to admit the truth.
Back to what Bob was saying in that rather lengthy argument. He said a lot of things that I completely disagree with! One of which was that Christ died for the sins of the “whole world” (“whole world” meaning each and every person in the entire world) I believe it to be speaking of people FROM the world. See the reasoning below:
1. You can’t go to hell if Christ died for you. - To say other wise is to say His work on the cross was not good enough and that it did not accomplish what God intended.
2. You can go to hell if Christ did not die for you.
3. Those whom Christ has saved (died for) can not be taken from His hands.
4. We know from the pages of Scripture that people do go to hell.
5. Thus the “whole world” can not mean all of humanity in all time.
Then referring to what he said about how Christ died for all but that it is up to us to choose salvation. (While we do have to accept the salvation offered us, it is God who works in our heart to make us want to be saved/accept the gift offered.) If you leave it in the hands of men (i.e. choice) as to who will be saved you are saying that God can not decide who will go to HIS heaven. Then you are saying that man is more powerful than God. When you say that, you have no God.
When we are born we are dead spiritually. Picture a dead person - can they do any thing? - absolutely not! And not only that, they can’t even think. That is our spiritual life before we are saved. Can a person who can’t think chose anything ? - uhhh, NO! It is only as God works in us, breathes life into our dead bodies, that we can receive salvation. He chooses who He will, with no action on our part , He is the one who causes us to believe. Those He chooses must be raised to spiritual life. They can not withhold the working of the Most High. He knew who He chose before the “foundation of the world”.
Eph 1:4-6 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”
Rom 9:11 “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)” - “calleth” in this text in Greek means the one who does the inviting.
Rom 9:13-16 “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
The just reward for even one sin is hell (“For the wages of sin is death…” Rom 6:23). Salvation is an act of mercy. You can have justice without mercy but never mercy without justice. All are given justice (hell) unless God, in His great mercy, chooses us.
I will be praying for you too Bob! May God bless your reading and understanding of His Word.
If the parents are chosen, does that make the children chosen automatically?
No, God does not "automatically" choose anyone. If that was the case Esau would have been chosen too, because his parents were believers. And we know that he was not chosen - see the Romans reference in my last comment.
Hooray!!! 40 Comments!!! I don't know how you do it Brian. 10 More and you will have to open up another post to carry on this conversation.
Hey Stacy, Would that make you afraid to have any children knowing that they could be born to go to everlasting torment in hell?
That is a very mean question. Or maybe you really want to know, so I won't think the worse of you for it, but knowing my sister like I do, I think she would not be afraid at all. Because she knows that if God in His infinite wisdom decides to take her children from her, He would also give her the strength/humility to say a Job: "Blessed be the Lord." I know that if I ever had kids their salvation would be my greatest concern for the rest of my life.
The question was not meant to be mean. Reading your posts, unless I am totally mistaken, you believe that some people are born to be saved as a part of the elect or some are born to be lost or eternally apart from God in hell being eternally tormented. Why would God allow anyone to be born bound for hell without giving them a choice? You said yourself that if you had kids you would be concerned for their salvation. What is the point in being concerned if it has all been predetermined?
Consider it a blessing, Anonymous, that God has predestined some to life. For we all would be going to hell were it not for God's pulling some of us out of sin. It's like a man making pots and putting them on a conveyor belt. Later, he pulls some off that belt and puts them on a different belt. In sort of the same way, God graciously takes us Christians from perpetual sinfulness and saves us.
The difference is that pots do nothing wrong. But it's only just for God to punish humans for sinfulness. He is God; how can anyone say to him, "What have you done?"
If I come across as harsh here, sorry. I really don't know how to express what I believe as true here without sounding this way, although I'm not angry or anything.
If I said that we do not have a choice, I did not mean to. We all have the choice of salvation before us. But even though we have been given a choice, we are unable of making the decision for Salvation unless we are torn away from our sinful natures by God. It's like we are all on a highway to hell. We have an off ramp which will put us on the road to heaven, but we are going to fast to see it. So the Spirit has to lay down a spike strip to deflate our tires of pride, self-centeredness, foolishness, and idolatry to get us to slow down and see the better road. Why dosen't He do this for everyone? I don't know. But for whatever reason it is, you can be sure that it is perfectly just, holy, loving, and entirely for His glory.
If there's more that anyone wants to discuss, I'll be happy to make annother post so there will be plenty more room for comments. :)
I think I'm done. :)
Watching from afar off, I am puzzled at the ideas that some have stated. I (Bob) have been compared to the KKK; I have been sarcastically referenced; I have even been criticized for my “rather lengthy argument”; I have even been accused indirectly, of twisting Scripture to fit my purpose – comparing me to Satan. I did not join this blog to argue – just to state the facts – so that you might see the Truth of the Scripture – so that onlookers will think for themselves and not just believe with blind faith what some man has written.
I do not apologize for “lengthy” excerpts: The Bible has much to say.
I do not apologize for the quotations from the Bible – because I am not a proponent relying on my thinking (to which you are fortunate). I have, however, relied on the facts of the Bible. I have not given you my ideas – I have simply recounted the Truths of Scripture.
Several have “reacted” rather than having “responded” to my writings. I have not meant to back anyone into a corner – as if I were waving a fiery torch at you. Neither did I intend for you to strike at me. However, I have no reservation about stating the Truths of the Word of God – even if it causes some to “react.” Jesus said in Matthew 10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” A sword to divide – and make men choose Christ or reject.
In response, I have viewed your arguments. It is obvious that some have paid careful attention to their teachers. Some have studied, with great attention, the writings of their church forefathers. Some have given to us logical appeals to accept their way of thinking. Some have even gone so far as to write their own parables (which are earthly stories with eternal, Heavenly meaning – mutually exclusive to Christ).
With all due respect though, who cares what you “think?” – who cares what I “think” for that matter? Isn’t the Truth of Scripture what truly matters? I do not mean for this to be an insult, but since when have the confines of human reasoning transcended the mind of God? The ideas that we have are merely ideas, unless supported by the Bible. I have never given to you my thought processes. I have always stated from Scripture. It is not a matter catchy phrases or clichés – it is the Word of God that establishes Truth.
I would remind you of the following passages:
Proverbs 14:12 “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
Proverbs 16:25 “There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
A truth so important, it was stated twice in the same book. Though ideas may seem right because one of your church leaders said or published it, do not take for granted, with blind faith, the arguments of man. You may put together the most logical of inductive or deductive arguments you could ever think of – It still does not matter what we think. The Truth of Scripture is to be the deciding element.
One has said that unlimited atonement makes a mockery of the cross – not true. Christians (according to Scripture) would be the ones to make a mockery of the cross – if they continued in sin. Romans 6 attests to that:
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I never condoned sin – or any flippant approach to the grace of God. Christians will sin (because we are not yet glorified) – but they should not use God’s grace as a license to sin. Please do not think that I take that approach.
Unlimited atonement is actually a support and glorification of the cross: Unlimited atonement shows the power and love displayed in the saving work of the cross!
“Limited atonement” is an idea of man – never stated in Scripture. I refer you back to the book of Isaiah, chapter 53 and the comments on this passage. It is difficult – yeah, impossible for you or any of your church leaders to refute this passage into supporting your beliefs. I again, make a stand based on the Word of God. Nothing else is needed.
Your belief has God loving the saved (of the past, present, and future) and hating the sinner (choosing them to go to Hell). This is not an actual teaching in the Word of God. In fact, Judas (the one who betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver) was even called “friend” from the lips of Christ (Matthew 26:50). You cannot reconcile that to fit the theory of limited atonement or total inability. Jesus, though he knew Judas would betray Him, loved Judas. He died for Judas’ sins as well. That is why Jesus called him “friend.”
As far as what your church leaders believe, with all respect, it does not matter what they think; their ideas are still just ideas until backed by Scripture. You can look at your leader’s “proof text” of Ephesians 2:8-9:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
You will discover that it is not the faith that is given by grace – rather it is the salvation that is given by grace. It is the salvation that is “not of works.” Faith is nothing to boast about anyway. SALVATION is the subject of Paul’s dissertation to the Ephesians’ church. This passage does not support the theory of election.
One went on the write a “parable” – I only say this with sarcasm because he compared his story (car purchasing) to a REAL parable of the Seed and the Sower. At best, your “parable” was just an illustration – not a very good one either (no offense intended). The blood of Christ is incomparable. There is no action that compares, there is no picture that can measure, and there is no story that you can write, that will match the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ is not confined to your finite mind, (not meant to be an insult) nor is His blood confined to my finite mind. The blood of Christ has power to save.
You overlooked the premise behind Proverbs chapter one. Verse 28 says, “Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:” (By itself, this passage could possibly support your claim, but more is said). Your “support verse,” however, hinges all on verse 24: “Because I have called, and ye refused: I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded.”
It doesn’t take a doctorate in Theology to understand God’s problem with these people: They first, refused and rejected Him. God did not hear them, because they first, refused Him.
Another individual quoted Ephesians 1:4-6 as “proof” for this “total inability” idea: to say that God “chooses” us to be saved or to go to Hell. Again, I point out that this passage is emphasizing the importance of right living. You failed to elaborate on the whole passage:
4 “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (emphasis added)
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.”
Did God, according to this passage, “choose” them to be saved? No. He chose them that they should be holy and without blame.
Romans chapter nine needs to be reread by certain individuals. This particular chapter deals with God’s will for Israel – not the theory of election. Romans nine has little to do salvation at all. Notice that the passage is speaking of a specific people? I appreciate the Greek lesson – but your Greek is taken out of context.
My Bible has stated, not just in one, but in several instances, that Christ died for the sins of the world (I John 2:2; Isaiah 53:6; John 3:16). You can try and find your “deep, meaningful idea” about these verses, but it would be easier and more appropriate to interpret the Bible as it was intended: Literally. Even if the Bible supported the doctrine of full atonement only once, we could still be founded on that doctrine. But the Bible gives us several passages to support the doctrine of full atonement.
You can philosophize and reason all you want, but you cannot deny the Truth stated in Scripture. If I believed as the Reformed Presbyterian’s, there would little to no reason for me to witness. Everybody would already be elected to Heaven or Hell. Right? Would it really matter if I witnessed? Could it even make a difference?
How do people usually get saved anyway? Individuals witness the message of the Gospel to them. They go out and tell others: The Great Commission (Matthew 28). They present to them a decision to accept or reject Christ.
To the reader:
The individuals, who have opposed my writings, have called my writings “hogwash” and have accused me of twisting Scripture – among other things. I again, point you to the fact that I have backed all stated views with Scripture. I have not fed you my opinions – I have pointed you directly to the Bible. Do not get caught in the follies of man – trying to reason God’s purposes to your level. I point you to Isaiah 55:8, which reads, “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”
In Matthew 4:17 it reads, “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”
I am here again, to invite you to trust Christ as your Savior. Right now, you can accept Christ and have salvation. In is not necessary for you to be a member of an elect group. You simply must receive Him: In the privacy of your own home, acknowledge that you are sinner, needing to repent (turn from) your sin. Ask Jesus Christ to forgive you your sins and to come into your heart as the Lord and Savior of your life. He will in fact save you. This choice is yours to make or refuse.
Please, email me with any questions you may have: diricbob99@yahoo.com
May God help you as you seek Him!
Bob
Bob, I agree with you that anything that we say (about salvation) should be based solely on what the Bible says. However, there are different interpretations of exactly what the Bible means. We should not base anything as important as salvation merely on what our opinions are, instead, like you have done we must go to what the Scripture says and then we can understand it. Romans 1:1-7 is the introduction that Paul gives to the whole book of Romans, indicating that the book was written to a select group of people.
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God--
2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
3regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
4and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
5Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
6And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore when we get to Romans 6, that is all to be applied to Christians.
Sure unlimited atonement seems like that which God would support, but if God is just, how can he let anyone into Heaven? Hebrews 2:17-3:2 says that Jesus Christ became like us and made atonement for the sins of the people - the holy brothers.
17 For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess.
2 He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house.
Romans 3:25 says the same thing - Jesus died do demonstrate his justice in paying for the sins of the believers.
25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished.
The truth is that the Bible does not mention specifically limited or unlimited atenement, however based on the interpretation of Scripture in its context, it is clear to me that atonement is for all sins. This is in only Christians and those that will be Christians. If Jesus died for all sins of all people reguardless, then everyone would be going to Heaven but we know that is not true. In 1st Peter 3:9 it says that God does not desire that any go to Hell, however there are many people that flat out reject God and his payment for their sins, and because of God's justice, they must be punished in Hell.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
He bore the sins of "many" not all.
Proverbs 1:24 But since you rejected me when I called
and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,
28 "Then they will call to me but I will not answer;
they will look for me but will not find me.
In Proverbs it is obvious to you and me that God does not save everyone because poeple reject the idea that they are sinners. God has the power to save everyone without distinction, but since they reject God, they must be punished in Hell. God, since he is all knowing, has known from the beginning of time who will be saved and who will not. He has predestinated (called)those who will be saved from before the world even existed. This does not mean that he will not use you or me to bring the Gospel to them. We are called by Jesus in Acts 1:8 and Matthew 28:19 to spread the gospel to the unbeliever. That is our calling.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
It's not the ones that do not believe that are saved, but the ones that believe - and God knows exactly who will believe and who won't.
1 Peter 3:17It is better, if it is God's will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Atonement for sin was made once, and once only.
I agree totally with you:
Trust in Christ as your Savior, you can do this right now no matter where you are. You do not have to be a member of a specific church. In your heart admit to God that you are a sinner, repent from them and ask his forgiveness for your sins. Ask Jesus Christ to forgive you your sins and to come into your heart as the Lord and Savior of your life. He will save you. Acts 2:21 And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
That is what I believe.
Make future comments here
At http://xptobvious.blogspot.com/2004/09/theres-plenty-of-space-to-continue.html
that is.
I was trying to make it a link but oh well.
50 comments!!!! ita a record!!!
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