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Monday, September 27, 2004
There's plenty of space to continue...
For those who may not have noticed, on one of my posts, there has been a lengthy discussion about salvation - who may receive it and how. I feel that it is a very important topic so please make any continuing comments here on this post.
Wow Bob! I am very sorry that I have offended you. I did not intend for you to take my comments that way. I was only warning that you watch your steps to make sure you do not follow the paths of said evil men of the KKK. (Which I also watch and pray that I do not do the same.) However as to your long posts, I would appreciate it if you would break them down into tow or three smaller posts to make for faster reading when I get a quick chance to log on. Also, I will still stand beside my statement that the view of unlimited atonement mocks the cross. (Note: I am not saying that you are mocking the cross, I believe that you have a sincere reverance for it.) Follow this: If Jesus paid for all the sins of everybody on the cross then either everyone should go to heaven because they don't have any sin to be punished for in hell (Which is unjust because then we could participate in whatever malice we pleased with no fear of judgement. Heb 9:27) Or Jesus wasted His precious blood paying for the sins of people who would never accept Him. Or both at the same time. Also note the verses Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated (sounds like God choosing to me) and ye love me because I first loved you (He had to start the process to save us). As far as to why Reformed Presbyterians have any motivation to witness: It was comanded in scripture. And I know for myself personally. I do not want my friends to have to face the horror of God's wrath, and so I will do everything I can to show them the scripture and pray that the Lord would use it in their lives to bring them to faith. Once again, plaese do not think that I am attacking you, but merely the widespread (but wrong) idea that man can take some credit for his own salvation, when God makes it clear that all things are for His glory, not our own.
O yes. May I also mention that the verses saying that God loves all the world etc... were written to the Jews who believed (and some still do) that God chose only them. It was not that every single body in the world is loved (Esau have I hated) but that the gift of God extends past the Jews to the Gentiles.
Brian, I was never offended at any of your comments - just a little confused.
As far as your comments, I am glad that you obey out of obedience. That is what we are called to do, but I also obey, in the matter of soul-winning for the ouroise if winning soul.
It is said of Jesus that He came to seek and to save that which was lost. He came for the purpose of saving sinners!
You may go "soul winning," but according to your line of belief, it doesn't matter if you have prayed for souls, wept for them, lived a life for God, or are even led by the Spirit of God. All is uncertain, because EVERYONE is either elect to Heaven or elect to Hell.
It seems rather pointless to me.
I present the message of the Gospel so that (for the purpose) people will accept Christ. Some, flat out, reject Christ. This has happened to me on two occasions in the last week. Others see their need for salvation and repent.
I am truthfully confused as to the actual purpose of your delivery of the Gospel though.
You have also said that the books of the Bible were written to saved Jews. In some instances you are right. If that were entirely true though, there would be little reason for the saved non-Jews to read the Bible. Right?
The Bible is the written Revelation of God to man.
We share the gospel because God has told us to do so:
Romans 10:14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”
Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
We don’t know who God has called, only He knows men’s hearts. So I have no excuse to NOT share the gospel. Besides the direct command of God, it would be incredibly selfish of me to keep this most amazing, valuable gift to myself. You say that you “present the message of the Gospel so that (for the purpose) people will accept Christ.” So do we, the only difference is that we believe God ultimately decides who will accept that message, rather than leaving the final decision in the hands of man.
And, speaking for my brother, Josh, I believe he meant that the writer had the Jews in mind when he wrote those letters, and therefore wrote addressing the struggles they were facing. We need to remember thought process of the original reader. We both believe that the Bible is God’s total, infallible word to us.
Bob, I too would like to humbly ask your forgiveness if I have offended you in anything I said. It was not against you personally, my brother in Christ!
Wow! Stacey knows me better than I thought. Thanks for saying what I was having so much trouble getting out Stacey. (This implies that she was right for those readers who are as thick as me, and need it said that plainly.)
God does not ultimately decide who will accept the gospel at the time it is presented. Because He is God, He knew before the foundation of the earth who was going to hear and by faith believe but how dare we say that those of us who do believe have been chosen to believe? God's will is that none would perish but that all would come to Him for salvation. Hell was not made for us but for satan and his followers and all who chose to serve satan by their own free will follow him into Hell just as all who will repent of their sin and come to Christ of their own free will by faith believing in His finished work on the Cross will spend eternity in Heaven with Him. If God chose who and who would not be saved as one who would pick the petals off a daisy, He did not have to send our Lord and Savior to be born, live, suffer, die, and be raised on the third day. Heaven would be an automatic process for the chosen ones and really no reason for us to be here and live on the earth.
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precions to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe:
"The stone the builders have rejected has become the capstone,"
and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were chosen for.
In this passage, I believe that God shows that we Christians (and those who are not yet Christians but will be) are elected to salvation, and that those non-Christians who will die unsaved are destined to hell.
According to you, the Stone is Christ. Is that correct?
Individuals are either elected to Heaven, or they are elceted to Hell because of this passage?
Yet in this passage, it is (according your version) written, "Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe:"
"The stone the builders have rejected has become the capstone,"
and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."
Let me ask you. Was it that they were rejected by Christ (according to your passage)? As I read it, the builders rejected the stone. Please correct me if I am wrong. Look carefully though.
The Divine order is foreknowledge, election, predestination. Not elect first. Please examine.
To clarify: Scripturally, God knows who will be saved. He calls those individuals His elect (based on His knowledge). Then He predestinates them to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with God choosing us to go to Heaven or Hell.
The very "proof text" of II Peter 2, quoted earlier by one of your church members, speaks of God knowing first - and then calling us His elect (best of the best).
Rom 8:29 further attests to this:
"For whom he did foreknow, he did also predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
I post with others - who take the truth of Prov. 1. The people reject God. Then God refuses. It is pretty straight forward to me.
Yes, this Stone is Christ. He quotes this passage about himself in Matthew 21:42 at the end of the parable of the tenants.
"Jesus said to them [the chief priests and elders who opposed him], "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'
I included the reference to Psalm 118 in the I Peter quote to preserve the context. It was not to prove a point. However, the people rejected Christ because they were predestined to do so. This does NOT mean that they bear no responsibility!
"To clarify: Scripturally, God knows who will be saved. He calls those individuals His elect (based on His knowledge). Then He predestinates them to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with God choosing us to go to Heaven or Hell."
If you be correct in the first three sentences, how can the third logically follow? God knows who will be saved because he so determined. Then he conformed them to Christ by saving them and sanctifying them. The only way to make this sentence logical in my mind is to say that God knows the future but does not control it. Do I understand your view rightly, or am I missing something?
I was not saying that God "elects" in the sense that a reformed presbyterian would say. I am saying that the saved are CALLED (named; titled) His elect.
Just as Jesus was called the firstborn among brethren, to show his preeminence above all creation; so are we called His elect - to show our postition to (and above) the rest of the world (not to be confused as a pride thing). Christians are blessed because they are Christians. The unsaved are not blessed (called His elect) because they do not know Him.
This hyper-election, hyper-choosing approach is similar to what some would call a hyper-Calvanist. You see, with that approach, all of this life is vain (empty). It wouldn't matter what was said or done by any individuals because they are elect to Heaven or Hell already. Individuals that are not a part of your "elect" group would never know if they would be an actual member of the "elect." Man's choice to follow God would be inconsiquential. Inviting one to God would be pointless. If one is elect - they will find God with or without you helping them. There is no point to a religious order like this. I am glad that this doctrine is not in the Bible. I am fortunate and blessed that someone told me that Jesus came to save. I accepted Him as savour. I am saved because I trusted God.
Sorry, Anonymous, I don't understand the first comment. Can you please explain it?
On the second comment: People _cannot_ simply choose to serve God of their own accord. Why do I say this? I believe that such a decision (to become a Christian) would be not a sinful deed, but a good one — one which pleases God. Yet Romans 8:5-8 says: "Those who live according to their sinful nature have their minds set on that that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Sprit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace, because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by their sinful nature cannot please God."
Anonymous, what do you believe saved you ultimately?
Anonymous: I am curious of what the difference is in your mind of the definition of being "elect" and being "called"? Or are they synonymous?
I agree with you, and I am also thankful that someone shared the gospel with me, however I disagree that it was by my effort that I was saved. You said "I was saved because I believed in God." But I say; I was saved because God caused me to believe on him. Do you see the difference? Or is that really what you meant?
"...saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (and that was given to me by God)..."
I see the difference Brian. In one "I was saved because I choose Christ" means I did it by myself, all the glory should go to me for my great decision. I was saved by my own decision (or works) (because it was something I did to get my salvation). This is what Catholics believe, the same Catholics who are instructed by the pope to worship graven images and pray to others besides God and buy their way out of hell. The other "I was saved because Christ choose me and rescued me from my sinflu nature" means I did nothing at all. All the glory should go to Christ (where it rightfully belongs) for His awesome and wonderful act of mercy and grace. And as far as my belief being pointless Anonymous, it does matter how I live. "By this shall ye know my disciples." and "Go ye into all the world and prach the gospel." It is true that God would save those He has choosen without us. (see the example of Saul) He does not need our help. In fact we usually end up getting in the way. But He has choosen to use us as a means to bring His elect to Himself, and He has commanded us to preach the gospel for that very purpose. I am soo grateful to be in a group of believers who know that we are free to go out and preach the word as much as possible, and then be able to sleep at night knowing that our duty has been filled even if we preached for a thousand years with no converts. We must only preach and leave the rest up to God. this is already to long so I will just comment again.
In light of my last comment Anonymous, I would urge you to quit yourself of your self-centerd view of salvation. Realize that we are all just flesh and bones, made from dirt. There is no good in us to choose salvation. Only through Christ is it possible.
Please do not take this comment the wrong way. I mean you no ill. I only humbly beseech you to give the Lord the glory and praise due unto His name. And take none of it for yourself. Remember that Herod had such a gruesome death because he would not give glory to God. Look up Acts 12:23 and no that I will pray for you, that you do not receive the same judgement.
21 comments:
Wow Bob! I am very sorry that I have offended you. I did not intend for you to take my comments that way. I was only warning that you watch your steps to make sure you do not follow the paths of said evil men of the KKK. (Which I also watch and pray that I do not do the same.) However as to your long posts, I would appreciate it if you would break them down into tow or three smaller posts to make for faster reading when I get a quick chance to log on. Also, I will still stand beside my statement that the view of unlimited atonement mocks the cross. (Note: I am not saying that you are mocking the cross, I believe that you have a sincere reverance for it.) Follow this: If Jesus paid for all the sins of everybody on the cross then either everyone should go to heaven because they don't have any sin to be punished for in hell (Which is unjust because then we could participate in whatever malice we pleased with no fear of judgement. Heb 9:27) Or Jesus wasted His precious blood paying for the sins of people who would never accept Him. Or both at the same time. Also note the verses Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated (sounds like God choosing to me) and ye love me because I first loved you (He had to start the process to save us). As far as to why Reformed Presbyterians have any motivation to witness: It was comanded in scripture. And I know for myself personally. I do not want my friends to have to face the horror of God's wrath, and so I will do everything I can to show them the scripture and pray that the Lord would use it in their lives to bring them to faith. Once again, plaese do not think that I am attacking you, but merely the widespread (but wrong) idea that man can take some credit for his own salvation, when God makes it clear that all things are for His glory, not our own.
O yes. May I also mention that the verses saying that God loves all the world etc... were written to the Jews who believed (and some still do) that God chose only them. It was not that every single body in the world is loved (Esau have I hated) but that the gift of God extends past the Jews to the Gentiles.
Brian,
I was never offended at any of your comments - just a little confused.
As far as your comments, I am glad that you obey out of obedience. That is what we are called to do, but I also obey, in the matter of soul-winning for the ouroise if winning soul.
It is said of Jesus that He came to seek and to save that which was lost.
He came for the purpose of saving sinners!
You may go "soul winning," but according to your line of belief, it doesn't matter if you have prayed for souls, wept for them, lived a life for God, or are even led by the Spirit of God. All is uncertain, because EVERYONE is either elect to Heaven or elect to Hell.
It seems rather pointless to me.
I present the message of the Gospel so that (for the purpose) people will accept Christ. Some, flat out, reject Christ. This has happened to me on two occasions in the last week. Others see their need for salvation and repent.
I am truthfully confused as to the actual purpose of your delivery of the Gospel though.
That last comment was made by me (Bob)
You have also said that the books of the Bible were written to saved Jews. In some instances you are right. If that were entirely true though, there would be little reason for the saved non-Jews to read the Bible. Right?
The Bible is the written Revelation of God to man.
Something to thik about.
Bob
I do apologize for the misspelled words (purpose and think) I was in a hurry.
We share the gospel because God has told us to do so:
Romans 10:14 “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?”
Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”
We don’t know who God has called, only He knows men’s hearts. So I have no excuse to NOT share the gospel. Besides the direct command of God, it would be incredibly selfish of me to keep this most amazing, valuable gift to myself. You say that you “present the message of the Gospel so that (for the purpose) people will accept Christ.” So do we, the only difference is that we believe God ultimately decides who will accept that message, rather than leaving the final decision in the hands of man.
And, speaking for my brother, Josh, I believe he meant that the writer had the Jews in mind when he wrote those letters, and therefore wrote addressing the struggles they were facing. We need to remember thought process of the original reader. We both believe that the Bible is God’s total, infallible word to us.
Bob, I too would like to humbly ask your forgiveness if I have offended you in anything I said. It was not against you personally, my brother in Christ!
Wow! Stacey knows me better than I thought. Thanks for saying what I was having so much trouble getting out Stacey. (This implies that she was right for those readers who are as thick as me, and need it said that plainly.)
God does not ultimately decide who will accept the gospel at the time it is presented. Because He is God, He knew before the foundation of the earth who was going to hear and by faith believe but how dare we say that those of us who do believe have been chosen to believe? God's will is that none would perish but that all would come to Him for salvation. Hell was not made for us but for satan and his followers and all who chose to serve satan by their own free will follow him into Hell just as all who will repent of their sin and come to Christ of their own free will by faith believing in His finished work on the Cross will spend eternity in Heaven with Him.
If God chose who and who would not be saved as one who
would pick the petals off a daisy, He did not have to send our Lord and Savior to be born, live, suffer,
die, and be raised on the third day.
Heaven would be an automatic process for the chosen ones and really no reason for us to be here and live on the earth.
I Peter 2:4-8 (NIV).
As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precions to him—you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For in Scripture it says:
"See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him will never be
put to shame."
Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe:
"The stone the builders have rejected
has become the capstone,"
and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were chosen for.
In this passage, I believe that God shows that we Christians (and those who are not yet Christians but will be) are elected to salvation, and that those non-Christians who will die unsaved are destined to hell.
According to you, the Stone is Christ. Is that correct?
Individuals are either elected to Heaven, or they are elceted to Hell because of this passage?
Yet in this passage, it is (according your version) written, "Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe:"
"The stone the builders have rejected
has become the capstone,"
and,
"A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall."
Let me ask you. Was it that they were rejected by Christ (according to your passage)? As I read it, the builders rejected the stone. Please correct me if I am wrong. Look carefully though.
The Divine order is foreknowledge, election, predestination. Not elect first. Please examine.
To clarify: Scripturally, God knows who will be saved. He calls those individuals His elect (based on His knowledge). Then He predestinates them to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with God choosing us to go to Heaven or Hell.
Just wondering, can you give some scripture for any or all of your comments? Acts 17:11
I forgot to add some to my last comment- A friend sticketh closer than a brother. (Stacey being a friend and not a brother)
The very "proof text" of II Peter 2, quoted earlier by one of your church members, speaks of God knowing first - and then calling us His elect (best of the best).
Rom 8:29 further attests to this:
"For whom he did foreknow, he did also predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."
I post with others - who take the truth of Prov. 1. The people reject God. Then God refuses. It is pretty straight forward to me.
Yes, this Stone is Christ. He quotes this passage about himself in Matthew 21:42 at the end of the parable of the tenants.
"Jesus said to them [the chief priests and elders who opposed him], "Have you never read in the Scriptures:
'The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'
I included the reference to Psalm 118 in the I Peter quote to preserve the context. It was not to prove a point.
However, the people rejected Christ because they were predestined to do so. This does NOT mean that they bear no responsibility!
You say:
"To clarify: Scripturally, God knows who will be saved. He calls those individuals His elect (based on His knowledge). Then He predestinates them to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with God choosing us to go to Heaven or Hell."
If you be correct in the first three sentences, how can the third logically follow? God knows who will be saved because he so determined. Then he conformed them to Christ by saving them and sanctifying them. The only way to make this sentence logical in my mind is to say that God knows the future but does not control it.
Do I understand your view rightly, or am I missing something?
I was not saying that God "elects" in the sense that a reformed presbyterian would say. I am saying that the saved are CALLED (named; titled) His elect.
Just as Jesus was called the firstborn among brethren, to show his preeminence above all creation; so are we called His elect - to show our postition to (and above) the rest of the world (not to be confused as a pride thing). Christians are blessed because they are Christians. The unsaved are not blessed (called His elect) because they do not know Him.
My blog was misinterpretted.
This hyper-election, hyper-choosing approach is similar to what some would call a hyper-Calvanist.
You see, with that approach, all of this life is vain (empty). It wouldn't matter what was said or done by any individuals because they are elect to Heaven or Hell already.
Individuals that are not a part of your "elect" group would never know if they would be an actual member of the "elect." Man's choice to follow God would be inconsiquential.
Inviting one to God would be pointless. If one is elect - they will find God with or without you helping them.
There is no point to a religious order like this. I am glad that this doctrine is not in the Bible.
I am fortunate and blessed that someone told me that Jesus came to save. I accepted Him as savour. I am saved because I trusted God.
Sorry, Anonymous, I don't understand the first comment. Can you please explain it?
On the second comment: People _cannot_ simply choose to serve God of their own accord. Why do I say this? I believe that such a decision (to become a Christian) would be not a sinful deed, but a good one — one which pleases God. Yet Romans 8:5-8 says:
"Those who live according to their sinful nature have their minds set on that that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Sprit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace, because the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by their sinful nature cannot please God."
Anonymous, what do you believe saved you ultimately?
Anonymous:
I am curious of what the difference is in your mind of the definition of being "elect" and being "called"? Or are they synonymous?
I agree with you, and I am also thankful that someone shared the gospel with me, however I disagree that it was by my effort that I was saved. You said "I was saved because I believed in God." But I say; I was saved because God caused me to believe on him. Do you see the difference? Or is that really what you meant?
"...saved by grace THROUGH FAITH (and that was given to me by God)..."
I see the difference Brian. In one "I was saved because I choose Christ" means I did it by myself, all the glory should go to me for my great decision. I was saved by my own decision (or works) (because it was something I did to get my salvation). This is what Catholics believe, the same Catholics who are instructed by the pope to worship graven images and pray to others besides God and buy their way out of hell. The other "I was saved because Christ choose me and rescued me from my sinflu nature" means I did nothing at all. All the glory should go to Christ (where it rightfully belongs) for His awesome and wonderful act of mercy and grace.
And as far as my belief being pointless Anonymous, it does matter how I live. "By this shall ye know my disciples." and "Go ye into all the world and prach the gospel." It is true that God would save those He has choosen without us. (see the example of Saul) He does not need our help. In fact we usually end up getting in the way. But He has choosen to use us as a means to bring His elect to Himself, and He has commanded us to preach the gospel for that very purpose. I am soo grateful to be in a group of believers who know that we are free to go out and preach the word as much as possible, and then be able to sleep at night knowing that our duty has been filled even if we preached for a thousand years with no converts. We must only preach and leave the rest up to God.
this is already to long so I will just comment again.
In light of my last comment Anonymous, I would urge you to quit yourself of your self-centerd view of salvation. Realize that we are all just flesh and bones, made from dirt. There is no good in us to choose salvation. Only through Christ is it possible.
Please do not take this comment the wrong way. I mean you no ill. I only humbly beseech you to give the Lord the glory and praise due unto His name. And take none of it for yourself. Remember that Herod had such a gruesome death because he would not give glory to God. Look up Acts 12:23 and no that I will pray for you, that you do not receive the same judgement.
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